Dan Dimmock shares his two-decade journey in purpose-driven brand development in the latest episode of the "Marketing Society Sustainability Squad" podcast hosted by Abdul Rahim Osman.

The duo delve into the transformative power of brands when fueled by a higher purpose, influencing consumer choices and making a broader global impact. They underline the essence of brand clarity definition for organisations and its alignment with their strategy. The interview highlights how brand transcends mere economic objectives when anchored in a genuine purpose and can resonate profoundly with all stakeholders. And where purpose-centric marketing is vital in today’s ever-changing business landscape.

Tune in to hear this insightful discussion and start reshaping your brand strategy today!

Edited transcript

Abdul-Rahim Osman

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Marketing Society Sustainability Squad podcast series, leading the conversation on ESG. My name is Abdul Rahim, and I'm your host for today. Hosted out of the UAE, the podcast was designed to bring together a group of members to help drive change around ESG, helping to curate high-quality content in the UAE's year of sustainability. We want to educate and inspire the Marcomms community to drive change around ESG and sustainability. We also want to put the Marketing Society at the heart of the sustainability conversation for marketers in the build-up to Cop 28 and truly lead the conversation for the industry. Today, I'm pleased to be joined by Dan Dimmock, and we shall be diving into perspectives from brands being purpose-led and the creative industry.

Dan, welcome.

Dan Dimmock

Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Abdul-Rahim Osman

Thanks for making time. Dan is a cultural and institutional brand architect, an impact strategist, a fractional CBO, an advisor and educator. Best known for his work as a consultant, Dan has been championing purpose-driven brand development as a vehicle for change over the last two decades and has built a career helping public and private sector leaders improve self-awareness and empower organisational transformation through brand clarity, higher purpose and measurable impacts. In 2015, Dan co-founded Firstwater Advisory, a specialist strategy and execution consultancy focused on building sustainable brands in underserved markets. Before establishing Firstwater, Dan led teams for two of the world's leading consultancies, Fitch and FutureBrand, where he held key leadership positions across the Middle East and Asia Pacific regions. Dan is also the creator of the Brand Clarity Assessment Effectiveness Framework and the Sustainable Brand Model Canvas. Furthermore, regularly commenting on issues shaping business and brand, his perspectives have been featured in Arabian Business Branding, Strategy Insider, CNN, Fast Company, The Financial Times and The New York Times. He's an outside lecturer at Middlesex University's Institute for Sustainable Development, Strathclyde Business School and other forums. He also serves as a subject matter expert for business accelerator programmes and advisor to board members for impact-driven startups. Dan, a great title and many perspectives you'll be able to share around being purpose-led, so thank you for taking the time.

Dan Dimmock

My pleasure.

Abdul-Rahim Osman

Dan, you have a very unique view, as we've talked about this for a while around brand and the function of brands. So, enlighten us.

Dan Dimmock

We're not sure it's unique, but it is a perspective that's born from a genuine passion for wanting to understand how brands are defined, measured and managed; as well as the role that brands play in helping leaders broaden their understanding of value, particularly as we go into value-based economies, and in helping people ultimately make better, more informed decisions. And I'll give some context and some clarity around that: every day, as human beings, we make decisions about the brands we invite into our lives. They inform our choice of toothpaste and ensure the clothes we wear, the car we drive or the brands we don't want to engage with. Now that's really powerful stuff. And when you times that level of power of conscious consumerism and the influences it can have on people making every day, in making the right, everyday decisions, when a higher authority powers a brand, a higher purpose or reason for being, then brands have the power to influence decisions which in turn directly influence the world around us.

Now, given its genus and gravitas, when brand is dealt with as a function or a utility of marketing, I believe, sustainability is potentially held hostage. Now, a very simple comparison here is if you look at the world's top-ten media spenders against the top-ten worst polluting companies and corporations in the world, through single-use plastic for example, you'll see a clear connection between the two. This comparison highlights the reality-perception gap. So, you asked me what my perspective on brand is. Well, I see brand as beyond perception, and brand is the key to influencing reality in the world through measurable outcomes. Brands that bridge this gap deliver on a promise that they put out into the world to make the world a better place. And when companies are fully and passionately committed to sustainability, they’re able to strike a balance between shareholder return, and the expectations relating to a commercial benefit of the company, i.e. profit, and societal impact. Brands that don't, i.e. brands that talk but don't do the walk, well, they're purpose washing. Generally, this is signalled by reactive marketing activity and promotional inconsistencies, and, as such, a reputation crisis is imminent for those organisations.

Abdul-Rahim Osman

So effectively, what you're trying to say, and summarising some of what you've walked us through in detail is, brand needs to be a function of the organisation and not a function of marketing if you're going to go behind purpose.

Dan Dimmock

I'd go further than that and say brand is a leadership imperative. Because brand, if you think about the stakeholders an organisation engages, it's not just the consumers, employees, R&D departments, and innovation departments. It could be sales, finance, marketing, and every one of those departments. An organisation's operations effectively communicate with somebody in the outside world in one way or another. The business itself impacts people who don't necessarily buy the product. And this is really important stuff. If brand is seen as a leadership imperative, it can help broaden the rest of the organisation’s understanding of value. Where brand value creation, in effect, can be effectively implemented across the entire organisation. Otherwise, marketing is typically seen as a promotional operation to boost awareness and profile and increase sales and growth.

Abdul-Rahim Osman

It's funny you mentioned the word growth because you picked up on something we talked about in the last podcast: we've seen a shift in the industry, and effective marketing was thought of as driving growth for businesses. Forbes mentioned this as well: Which is, the biggest transformation we've seen in the industry is the movement away from just being growth-focused to being purpose and values-focused. So, in your humble experience, how do you see that shift manifest in a marketing function? Because you're talking about marketing and brand living at the leadership level. And we've had these conversations about marketing having a seat on the executive table. Many marketers face the challenge of getting that seat in the first place. So, is it the role of a marketer or a CBO, as you mentioned before, to navigate the business towards a purpose?

Dan Dimmock

There was another recent Forbes study which asked a number of CMOs about where they saw their role and responsibilities. I can't remember the exact number, but I was alarmed by the number of CMOs who believe they exist for growth. Now, that raises an even bigger question: What were their CEOs thinking if CMOs believed that at that particular time? It's pretty much go out there and sell. So, that connection between perception and reality and the overall link between value and understanding, and how an organisation creates value, particularly in the wider ecosystem, becomes more vital. I think marketing and CMOs certainly serve a role and purpose. You see many CMOs taking the helm and having the responsibilities of the brand, from a governance and management perspective, within part of their mandate.

But, as we've seen with many renowned brands, those we praise regularly — typically from the United States and in Europe — are more likely to have a “Chief Brand Officer”. And they are there to ensure the continuity of the philosophy and leadership’s ideals are effectively cascaded and implemented throughout the business, of which marketing is a function. There's a hierarchical debate about who reports to whom and where. And obviously, you can't get out into the world without clear marketing. But if that CBO, who may also wear a sustainability and purpose-driven hat, is championing the charge, then you'd hope to see effective levels of implementation and impact.

Abdul-Rahim Osman

So, as you've been helping brands become more self-aware around purpose and serving that higher purpose, which you just talked about, in your view, what does it mean to be a purpose-driven organisation?

Dan Dimmock

That's a great question. The quick, slightly utopian answer to that is clarity. I think a purpose-driven organisation has established a great sense of clarity. Just going back a couple of steps to what I was saying about how I see a brand connecting with all stakeholders within an organisation to drive consistency and continuity of purpose, philosophy and message, you might argue that brand clarity is, in fact, absolute clarity. So, an organisation that has clarity with all its stakeholders around what it's there to do and how it does it, I think, sits at the heart of a purpose-driven organisation. As I said, that's perhaps a slightly utopian answer. Because most organisations are highly complex and incredibly complicated. So, first off, if you're a purpose-driven organisation, you have to have a higher purpose.

If you're a purpose-driven organisation, there has to be a point of reference, a North Star, as BCG would call it. Something that is clearly understood and a reason for being that's beyond the economics and the commercial gain of the business. Purpose, I believe, can provide much-needed context between an organisation's mission and its vision. So, clarity of purpose helps. If you're there to deliver a solution, purpose provides the element to answer: Why are we doing this? And then, you can build a brand.

The anatomy of a strategy begins with what, then why and where are we going? With this in mind, you can add measures and effectiveness elements too. And I think this is why purpose is also the context driver that helps to connect all the dots. Knowing what you do and where you're going in terms of your mission, your vision, and your purpose gives people clarity and context. The articulation and manifestation of your purpose within the organisation help you get there and keep you focused. And it keeps the organisation focused, too. It means you can navigate very difficult, challenging times as a business by staying true to those key elements that define you and your philosophy as a business. And many different organisations articulate that in a different way. From an articulation perspective, Some organisations intend to be great companies. Others steer more morally towards what they want to accomplish. Or, particularly large conglomerates, diverse portfolio-based businesses look to connect with people through their values. This means alignment around being a values-driven business that connects on a meaningful level and like-mindedness.

Once you've uncovered a purpose with legs — one that is actionable and accountable — you can go through a process of aligning people around your philosophy as a leader or business. And purpose needs to be embedded into the strategy. Once you've got a higher purpose, you need a purpose-driven strategy. Perhaps that's a plural. So, purpose-driven strategies are probably right. Of which brand strategies are a workstream used to bring purpose to life. And to stay the course, you must also connect with your talent, future talent and employees. So, how do you connect your purpose deeper with people? We’re already seeing many brands shifting away from what was once marketing comms-led messaging around extrinsic motivations and extrinsic values, like wealth, status, speed and power, to more intrinsic values, like compassion, honesty, empathy, and understanding.

Abdul-Rahim Osman

It's quite funny you say that: I remember sitting with a brand several years ago and talking about exactly what you've just said. So this rings true and brings it home. The fact that we’re talking amongst agencies around one table, talking about what it means to be international, what does it mean to be of value to brands at that time? And the shift of brand has been significant towards a higher purpose. So, this is something that I feel marketers should take away. That is, if you have — just to summarise some of what you've said — clearly defined values and a higher purpose, then define your mission and vision around these elements and formulate your strategies around them. This brings me to my next question: How do you navigate this as a business? But you've already done that in a very summarised way.

Dan Dimmock

What we've been doing with my consulting practice is identifying the key pillars, principles and indicators needs. I say pillars, principles and indicators because, while similar, they serve different roles at different stages in brand development.

So, from pillars or strategic alignment perspectives to principles to help inform behaviours, through to indicators to help measure the impact of your brand. Returning to our discussion about being a purpose-driven organisation, you can only lead via an actionable purpose. This requires clarity around the strategy of how that will be embedded into the organisation. A good strategy has both measures and actual reasons to believe, as well as all of the other key elements, to prove a purpose to be true.

Abdul-Rahim Osman

KPIs?

Dan Dimmock

Whether OKRs or KPIs, there's got to be a series of real, impactful outcomes that tick both the business requirements alongside sustainability and impact measures. Social and environmental. But, to do that, communications, both internally and externally, have to be conscious.

Let’s think about conscious communication for a second. This is a style of communication that isn't selling for sale’s sake. It's being open and thoughtful around the fact that the message you put out today can have implications that can continue for a time, time in the future. So you've got to be conscious of that. Intrinsically engaged people, as I mentioned, empathetically connected customers and purpose-driven organisations need to be agile and responsive. When agile and responsive, brand becomes a measurable asset and tool. So, it’s got to have management policies and access to available investment, and it's got to be focused on and embedded into that organisation throughout. How else can a brand become, what we in the industry, your most valuable asset?

That said, it’s also important to say that there's no one-size-fits-all approach to building a purpose-driven organisation or brand. But there is one thing that's true of all purpose-driven organisations: the realisation that, in one way or another, every single activity either creates or diminishes value. And that's important. That leads us to think about the importance of self-awareness. Organisations need to be self-aware. They need to understand that the impact they have on people may not necessarily be the person who bought the product. It could be somebody further down the supply chain that they haven't considered or considered. And that interrogation of the value chain becomes imperative in terms of helping to inform and grow lasting equity and association and, to some extent, survival in the future economy.

Abdul-Rahim Osman

Future-proofing!

Of all the jargon we must include in a marketing podcast, I think the one I'd like to change personally is from KPIs to impactful outcomes. So, my next slides will have impactful outcomes instead of KPIs.

Dan Dimmock

Then we've achieved something brilliant today.

Abdul-Rahim Osman

So is it proactive from your side, then, in terms of your consultancy practice? Are you going to existing clients that you have and working with them proactively to navigate them towards a higher purpose? Or are brands coming to you and asking for this?

Dan Dimmock

That, again, is a very good question. We have a multidimensional consultancy offer where we have tools that have been created for small businesses and small enterprises. We provide leadership and advisory services to boards and key decision-makers. We also have an extensive methodology for brand transformation that can be used to define bespoke activities that result in clear deliverables to bring an organisation forward. We also focus quite a bit on education. So, I am very fortunate to have been invited to speak at several business schools and universities and contribute to key business publications. So, in a roundabout way, to answer your question, we use every opportunity to educate and share proven processes and perspectives. Too, when clients come to us, we like to think they know what we do and have a good idea of what we do. This means they have a sense of self-awareness and are pre-qualified — already looking at ways to uncover a purpose and unleash it into the world through effective design experience creation, marketing, and communications. We sort of tackle sales in that way. Most of our clients will have come to us for a particular reason, knowing we can help and support them. We also provide advisory support services in connecting social and environmental impacts to the outcome of that brand strategy.

Abdul-Rahim Osman

Dan, if I'm a marketer sitting in any organisation right now and I'm listening to this, and I'm thinking, what are my first steps? Apart from going on your website and clicking “Contact Us”, where do we start this? Do we navigate our stakeholders first? Do I go to my CMO, my CBO, my CEO? Because I want it to be something tangible that marketers at all levels can take away from this.: What would you recommend to be the first step in this?

Dan Dimmock

Again, another great question. We, of course, get inquiries from marketers at all levels who have been asked to find a partner who has the right methodologies and values in order to help drive and grow a business. We can't control every brief that comes to us, but where possible, we always go back and ask this fundamental question: are leadership in alignment with the project that you're tendering for that you're briefing?

Abdul-Rahim Osman

Okay.

Dan Dimmock

Because if they're not, we cannot create shared value. From the outset, engagement has to be leadership-sponsored. Brand creation, development, and brand-building are all leadership imperatives. So, our philosophy and point of view around how best to achieve effectiveness is key. Marketing-led enquiries must be empowered or, at least, able to influence leadership decisions. If not, brand is most likely seen as a promotional outcome. Then, unfortunately, not for us!

Abdul-Rahim Osman

So, get the licence?

Dan Dimmock

Yeah. We can only create value when an initiative has been sponsored from the very top of an organisation.

Abdul-Rahim Osman

Brilliant. On the reverse end of that spectrum, I would say many brands are nervous about backlash and being labelled as greenwashing and purpose washing, as you referenced. So, when we're talking about Cop 28, we're talking about commitments for many years and long-term strategies, 2030, 2050. We shouldn't lack the passion or the willingness to take that first step on fear. That said, I was reading the other day about having crisis communications ready and being more ready for crisis communications, learning from COVID-19. Too many other things could happen. But in that respect, to ask a question: What would you say to marketers who might fear negative backlash?

Dan Dimmock

In the same way that we want marketers to have secured leadership endorsement within their organisation, to mitigate the likelihood of being tarnished as a purpose-washer or a greenwasher, whatever it may be, there have to be measurable outcomes, right? There has to be justification. So, the promise of purpose you put out into the world has got to be materialised. It's got to be made very real. So the best way to do that from a marketing perspective is to ensure the initiative being championed by marketing, or if it's being championed elsewhere in a business, has got to be true. Getting as many of your stakeholders, who are part of that journey to becoming a better organisation, together and involved in the transformation or transition of your organisation is vital. So, to give you some examples. So many organisations are currently focusing on their sustainability vision and the lead-up to The COP.

The COP is great; it's caused many slow movers to start upping the game and thinking about change. We’re seeing many appointments of sustainability leaders or mandates being added to someone else within the organisation, usually communications. Whether that comes from The COP, perhaps somewhere else, or marketing, the influence of data has returned and said, look, guys, we've got a real problem here. And we need to start doing something. So it's got to connect. You've got to bring in key stakeholders. So, I guess the argument is that it doesn't matter whether marketing is leading the charge, sustainability is leading the charge, or HR is leading the charge. Still, there has to be some cohesion against all of the different operations of the business. Then, when marketing puts that message out there and it gets support and sponsorship from leadership, it’s bottom-up, top-down, inside-out, outside-in. Only then the chances of being tarnished as a greenwasher are mitigated.

Abdul-Rahim Osman

So, it's about taking action and getting that licence, having impactful outcomes ready, the buy-in from the business or all functions of your business, and then navigating this correctly! This leads quite nicely to another concept in your publications, “Sustainability gives organisations more opportunities to be more creative”. And I think that's a lovely quote. Can you elaborate on that for us a little bit?

Dan Dimmock

Yes, absolutely.

In different markets, some industries are embracing sustainability. If not, then they’re being pressured to embrace sustainability. So, there's also a mindset shift, transition, and change, particularly in developing markets. As a business, what this comes down to is that you can exist on two planes, right? You can either focus on short-term appeasement, which means all you do is adhere to sustainability pressures as a licence to operate. And your business is just fulfilling legal requirements. If so, there'll be limited PR effort to do that. Or, you start embedding sustainability, processes and the notion of sustainability into your organisation. When you do, you’ll start to see new ideas. It all begins with purpose and using sustainability as a lens to improve people's experiences. And when you start thinking like that, you're innovating.

For example, you may be a bank. You may have a consumer banking app, and you may be wondering why there's a big drop in the usage or engagement with the app. If you look through the lens of sustainability to engage with your stakeholders, get their insights and start looking at the elements and functions of that app — once you do that and start using your purpose as a lens to innovate — you'll find new ways in which to bring your brand experience to life. That's just one example. You’ll also see that when you embrace sustainability and are in changing industries, for example, energy being one, sustainability allows you to look at your entire value chain. It looks at your entire process and helps you position yourself. As you mentioned earlier, you’re future-proof!

So, sustainability is a great innovator and enabler. It can provide sources for new products, where portfolios can shift to having longer-term visibility, and it can also correlate to a shift in internal performance measurement and continuous improvement and making yourself a better workplace. Still, many businesses with that kind of short-term results focus are just ticking the boxes to adhere to regulation. And then others have embedded sustainability into it and are looking at long-term performance. They've put sustainability at the core of their operations, and they're using sustainability-driven innovation to meet demand, in fact, the increasing demand for sustainability as a prerequisite to being in business.

Abdul-Rahim Osman

It's interesting because, like the car industry, we're seeing more electronically powered vehicles and moving away from oil-based ones. So basically, we're saying that some are being forced when you look at industries. When you look at other industries, brands can get very creative around this. So, how have you felt the industry has handled the ESG topic over the last few years?

Dan Dimmock

I want just to reemphasize what I was just saying about long-term performance.

With sustainability-driven innovation, all offerings aimed at meeting the demands for sustainability, access to niche markets, extension markets, and creating new submarkets within the automobile industry, for example, right? Because of sustainability and increased consumer consciousness, accountability and responsibility regarding where you invest, spend your money, and spend your time and resources is growing. So, that becomes important in terms of ESG. Well, ESG is vital, and increases in disclosure become vitally important. And the rise of ESG is simply extending that licence to operate. If you think about the brands coming out of nowhere and having a significant impact and change on our daily lives, these businesses aren't just responding to the need and regulation of disclosure.

These companies have embedded sustainability into their business and the business models they operate. So, for example, if you deep dive into any of those businesses — they exist in automotive, clothing apparel, service, offerings, and everyday technology — each is driven by a purpose. A clear and compelling purpose that everyone in that organisation knows and understands and brings to life daily through customer experience, but also through the products and services that come to market.

Abdul-Rahim Osman

Before we recorded, you told me about how your daughter always tells you to look sideways. So now we talk about internal stakeholders navigating around a higher purpose. But how would you turn that around when discussing an agency or a creative agency? Is it partly their responsibility to navigate you, as a brand and as a client, towards this? Or is it for the brand to come together, define their higher purpose and then go out to these agencies? Or does it happen simultaneously?

Dan Dimmock

There's a slight issue in that there appears to be an invisible distinction between agencies and clients. I think the most effective agencies are the ones that seamlessly connect with their clients in the best possible ways. They understand them inside and out. And actually, the best relationships are where the clients understand their agencies inside and out. Agencies also have a responsibility in their respective industries to move forward, progress and advance thinking. Any agency that's not doing that, particularly when you think about how important the brand is in informing our everyday decisions, is irresponsible in my book.

So, I think it comes down to this very simple notion, which is the business of business is no longer just business, right? The business of business is also society. What this means — a tongue twister — is that the branding of a business has to be done responsibly, and the business of branding has to become more accountable.

Whoa! Let’s think about that for a second. So, in answer to your question, I absolutely, fundamentally think that if you are in the business of branding other businesses and knowing how important business is to solving not just everyday dilemmas and challenges that we have as consumers but the greater needs of humankind, then absolutely. Every business, whatever industry it’s in, should become more accountable. Because you also impact people that don't necessarily pay the bills. So, you are championing a cause. And again, if you're an agency and you're talking about change, about being on purpose, but you're not implementing it or driving that forward in your work or business, then I'm afraid you're purpose-washing!

Abdul-Rahim Osman

So yeah, Dan, I think that drives home a couple of points that we've discussed today. One is branding to be more accountable. That goes into something we discussed earlier, which was about impactful outcomes and looking at, effectively, brands singing from the same hymn sheet and businesses singing from the same hymn sheet. Whichever function of the business you are. Having that clarity at the top around what your higher purpose is and bringing all your stakeholders together, which I think gives a good summary of what we've discussed today. Do you think I've covered it?

Dan Dimmock

I think you have. A passing comment, particularly when we talk about the agency and the marketing and comms agency landscape, is that for the last 15 years, we've been talking about data and how we utilise data for insight purposes. Data also means, and the abundance of data means that we can pretty much measure anything. We're in a highly accountable world from a commercial and business perspective. If agencies are to take the investment, they put into data, in terms of capturing data, to target their communications and messages, there lies a solution to making themselves more accountable by using that data to measure the effective performance and the impact of their work. Now, I'm not talking about the number of impressions, how many readers you've got, or anything along those topical lines. I'm talking about ways in which you can connect the impact of your work to changes in behaviour that leads to material results and outcome. And I think that's exciting. And, with all the hype around AI at the moment, there's a bit of fear-mongering going on with the creative industry and the implications of that. I'm excited about what AI will bring for us from a data perspective—enhanced data collection and analysis. As long as the data sources used are ethically sourced and accurate, our ability to innovate using AI, public engagement tools, visual platforms or virtual platforms for collaboration goes on. And I think I'm very excited about how data will be able to be used to elevate the importance of accountability within the marketing and commerce industries.

Abdul-Rahim Osman

Dan, thank you very much for your time today. I can't leave without asking you the question we want to ask all our valued guests is what would be your top three practical advice for marketers to make a difference this year?

Dan Dimmock

Okay, so the first things first: brand clarity. So, understanding who you are, what you stand for, how you're effectively communicating and working as a business, and what impact are you having right now? The status quo and being true to yourselves and looking at that. And that helps develop a sense of self-awareness as a business or leader. The second thing is purpose, having a higher purpose that helps unite and bring all key stakeholders together, that is, around a common set of principles and ideals that can inspire people, drive business and innovate that business. The last piece there is impact and becoming more measurable and not looking at the normal metrics we use to measure campaign effectiveness or communications, but going a little bit deeper and helping clients and businesses report on marketing in their sustainability reports. And I think that's missing, and something I would like to start seeing is how ethics and principles are bought into the communications of businesses, particularly in sustainability reports. And I think, yeah, so impact, brand clarity, purpose and impact.

Abdul-Rahim Osman

Thank you very much. Thanks very much for your time today. It's been a great pleasure speaking to you. I hope to be able to invite you back to another one of these because there's a lot more we could go into. Please feel free to carry on the conversation on social. Let us know what you think of this episode. Please get in touch if you'd like to know more about the squad and our planned activity. Join us next time for the next episode, where we will hear from another leading marketing expert around marketing in ESG, and we'll be getting perspectives from the media industry. Thank you very much.